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1 God or not. on Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:56 pm

T@D

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First topic message reminder :

You can't find a better starting topic then to debate the existing of God... or it being one of the worlds largest lies. Cultures on every single land space believe in some sort of higher power.


What do you think?



Last edited by T@D on Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total


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"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


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101 Re: God or not. on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:11 am

h3av3n


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GOD!!!!!

102 Re: God or not. on Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:40 pm

T@D

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I have done a ton more research on this topic. I hope to post soon on what I have learned....


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"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

103 Re: God or not. on Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:53 pm

T@D

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Something to watch..


__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

104 Re: God or not. on Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:10 pm

T@D

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I should add these as well. Post your thoughts if you like.






__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

105 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:50 pm

h3av3n

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piuoGb-Nhfw&feature=related watch this....

106 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:26 pm

T@D

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I mean no disrespect, Heaven... but you do understand that story is an "urban legend" right? That story has been told with a few different variations since the 1920's. USC had actually done research in it as well and said that the story mentioned never took place in their school nor do they have a teacher that openly teaches against the proof or disproof of a "god".

http://www.snopes.com/religion/chalk.asp
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/c/chalk.htm

I see this time and time again that people that are believers either come up with or believe in stories like this. It's actually bothersome in a way. Granted, to each their own.... but these kind of stories, easily disputable, are not any type of foundation for truth or proof.

Look at things from a realistic prospective. The bible shows on many occasions that he "tested" man. Abraham was told to kill his son to prove he was faithful. Right before he did the act, he was stopped by god. This proved his detication to god. And god tested him.

Yet, when non-believers say "why cant got proove he exists", what is said? "God can't be tested". Seems a 1 way street doesnt it?

Let's even look at the story as being true as that video claimed. IF god wanted to "prove" he existed.... then why do something that is easily passed off as an accident? Why not get the chalk to hover over the ground? Why not have the chalk hit the ground full force and not break? Wouldn't that actually make the story more believable? That would show that there "may" have been something larger then us at work. The fact of him dropping the chalk accidentally onto his shirt then pants.... well, thats not abnormal.

Historically, there has never been even 1 story that is provable that shows there is any type of existence of any higher power. In fact, historically it has been proven that the earth seems to work in closer accordance to the chaos theory.

Random events, random happenings, explainable "miracles".....

In the biblical times.... The dead was raised, water into wine, seas parting, pillars of fire, angels to the masses, resurrections..... why would god do that? To prove that he exists. That being a fact.... how come not 1 thing like that has ever happened outside of the writings of the bible.

In my opinion, this is the exact same thing that was done for the story of Jesus. Take older stories, change them to make them more modern and re-tell as if they are truth. Did jesus exist? Maybe. Was teh bibles account of him written by decades after his death by people that never met him true? I don't believe so.

Here's something to think about:

The story of Horus, and Egyption god written about 1200 years before jesus was born. And yes, these writings are factual.

Horus was born of a virgin
His mother was a woman called Meri
His father was called Jo-Sep
His father was of royal descent
His birth was heralded by a star
Three Kings brought him gifts
His birth was witnessed by Shepherds
King Herut tried to have him killed
He was 30 when baptized
His baptizer went on to be beheaded
He was followed by 12 disciples
He walked on water and healed the sick
He gave a 'sermon on the mount'
He was crucified between 2 thieves
He was buried in a tomb
He was resurrected after 3 days and appeared to 2 woman
In the future, he was said to reign for 1000 years

See how stories seem to be adapted to religion as "proof"?


__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

107 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:54 pm

h3av3n

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Okay i understand you tad but listen to this. i have had personal experience more of a story. My dad and i went to go to my soccer practise and his car wasn't starting (I'm Greek Orthodox Christian) We were there for about 20 minutes.

Then i had a wierd idea to do my cross (i'll explain this later what it means) we do our cross three times in out religion and this felt like one of those times to do it. As i was doing it the car began to cough then right when i finished the third cross the car started explain that?? if you can.......

A cross is the thing that Jesus was crucified on but this cross is diffrent this cross is gestures with your hands that make a cross in the end ill give you a picutre of the Greek Orthodox Way.

108 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:03 pm

h3av3n

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109 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:04 pm

h3av3n

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Now finger positioning

110 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:13 pm

Merky

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Im here fairly often!
I have also watched these Zeitgeist videos in the past, they do seem a bit compelling, even if you genuinely do the research your self.

http://www.hsclan.co.nr

111 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:15 pm

T@D

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That story may hold water if..... it's never happened with out the "crosses".

The thing that most believers lack is the ability to understand "coincidences". Random act that happen at random times.

Think about this. How many people have been late and their car wouldn't start. After some time it does. Thats a mechanical situation, hardly a miracle. That is what we call a coincidence. Now, if the car has never ran before... and you have tried it on many occasions for a long period of time and the day you decide to "pray" for it to work and it does.... well, still explainable but I may see you having a point. Somewhat.

I am an Atheist. I can name off many times that things have happened that someone could call "unexplainable". There is no pattern or proof that believers or people that pray have ever received anything above and beyond people that don't. Studies on prayer have been done by independent groups and typically come to the same result.... life is random. Random acts occur. Praying or believing in a higher power has never nor will ever change the outcomes.

Out of the 75% of Americans that believe in a higher power.... how many are unemployed or have lost their homes due to the financial state of this country? Wouldn't a loving and caring god make sure his followers had the best they could?

You know who hasn't suffered? The medical community, the legal community..... and the religious (by profession) community. The every day person, believer or not, has had to deal with the same things in life. Always have, always will.


__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

112 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:26 pm

T@D

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I wanted to add something to look at.

Going off of the rough fact that 75% of Americans believe in god.....

Rounding up, 3000 people died as a result of 9/11. Using an average of 4 people per family but continuing to use the 75% believer rate....


2200 "believers" died.
6750 other "believers" were effected.

800 "non believers" died.
800 other "non believers" were effected.


8950 people that believe as opposed to 1600. What?

Now you can't tell me this was "gods plan". The death of innocent people by people that worship the SAME GOD..... yet the "believers" were more effected?


Life is random. Everything around us is random. That's a fact of life.




h3av3n wrote:Okay i understand you tad but listen to this.

EDIT:

Does this mean you now know that the story you posted was not real?


__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

113 Re: God or not. on Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:45 pm

h3av3n

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the story was real and my faith in God is strong. I will never stop believing in him. I'm surrounded with religious people all day my great-grandfather was a priest and my uncle works at a monastery 24-7 (he's not a monk) i even plan to become a priest you guys can think what you want but i know in my heart God is REAL! And the story was very real i never make shit up my brother was there and a few other people every single person was in awe when they saw what happened. And who here is not atheist just wondering??

114 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:44 am

T@D

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I wasn't saying the story you told was wrong.... I was talking about the youtube story you posted. I assumed your comment that I quoted meant you realized that it was not a true story.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I was raised in church. My step-dad was/is a pastor. I also went to a private school. I have gone on missionary trips as well as personally preaching, at a young age, at homeless shelters in Detroit. I was in constant study biblically and use to do a lot of research. That same research is what got me to what I believe in today.

Once thing I learned while studying for many years is simple....... the belief in any type of god is strictly faith based. The religious community tends to just brush off scientific facts because they do not fit their ideals. Although the speed of light is still realistic a "theory" in some ways, you can't dispute the speeds that have been recordable. 186000 miles per hour. That being a fact, and the bible saying that the heavens and teh earth are only 6,000 years old... well, you do the math. A recent discovery of a star over 1 billion light years away is a fact. But the bible specifically states that, around 6,000 years ago, teh earth and heavens (translated from universe and or sky) were created. How could everything be only 6,000 years old when there is indisputable proof that even things on earth can date back millions of years. That;s just one instance. I don't believe there is enough evidence to consider Darwin's evolution theory a fact.... but there is NO proof that creationism is a fact... aside from faith.

If there is a god, the one from Judeo-Christian beliefs... answer these question. (To your self if you like, you don't have to answer on here)

1. Why would people have believed the earth was flat? And why would teh "christians" be the ones that pushed the issue that the earth was flat. Surely god would have let them in on that.
2. The sun revolves around the earth? Same as above. People was called blasphemic to god for stating that the sun was the center of the solar system. Why would a god tell people things and show them things, but leave that out?
3. Why is the "person" that's name has been used for thousands of battles and millions of lost lives..... a loving god?
4. Why is most of the bible re-writings of ancient stories found to have been written well be for and scrolls used in te bible were written? The story of Moses, Abraham, Jesus, the Great Flood, Adam and Eve....those were all written hundreds and sometimes over a thousand years before the "scriptures" were found.
5. Why do people believe the bible was written by god when it is indisputable that a roman counsel headed by Constantine were teh actual ones who "voted" on what scriptures to use or not use. And if it's gods book"... why would got put it in the hands of a pagan?
6. Why is not one scripture written by anyone that was even alive during the life of Jesus? The earliest books were dated back to, at the least, 40 years after Jesus death.
7 Why, although there was historical archivers during the life of Jesus that recorded many things during that time frame, was Jesus never mentioned one time. (There was one historian that did say a short entry about someone he refered to as "Christos", or Christ. But the story in the bible was never recorded by anyone alive at teh time).
8. Why are children dying, being abused, raped, murdered.... That's a "loving god"? typically people blame Satan.... but isn't got the supreme being? Why allow people to suffer, people that pray for help to suffer. Yes, some of those that are dying are also praying. And you know what, they die at the same rate as everyone else.
9. If heaven is paradise... why don't more believers either commit suicide or allow diseases to take them. Why fight against going to Heaven? "My dad is sick, everyone please pray for a full recovery". Isn't that selfish? If I believed in heaven I would prefer he went there then to be sick. And how many people does it take to get a healing from god? Does 10 people praying increase the chance of it being answered? How about 10o or 1,000. Will he only answer if enough people pray? Considering he "answers prayers".... why wouldn't just one suffice? I'm not compairing myself to any god... but wouldn't that be considered redundancy? Do you think he forgot when you asked... you you have to continue to ask and get others to do so as well? Seems pretentious to me.

Your body is the "temple of god".... why would he allow people to be ravished with painful and fatal diseases? Wouldn't you want your temple to be clean of everything bad? Didn't Jesus kick over the tables in the bible because they were using the temple to sell and gamble? Why allow natural selection in a world that is under constant monitoring and control of a higher being?

Aside from faith... there's no evidence. I'm not saying it is wrong to believe. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they wish. As am I. I, however, try to base my beliefs on facts.

2 bible verses that I don't get.
Jesus said "No one can come to the father but by me". So that means every religion... whether they believe in god or not, if they do not believe Jesus is the son of god.... well, they go to hell. How is that right? They believe in the same god, but cant benefit from their loyalty since they were brought up Jewish or any other religion that doesn't believe in the Christian bible?

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". So if you are wealthy... you can't go to heaven? Seems a bit unfair.... considering religion is a multi trillion dollar industry who has million dollar leaders.... and members that fight daily for a better home, or car, or a raise at work.

Last question......

If god is all powerful and loves me.... wants me to be with him in heaven and walk the streets of gold by my mansion while worshiping him..........


.... why would he allow me to be an Atheist?




I'm a parent. I love my kids. I wouldn't let my kids stray down a path of drugs, immoral actions, murder, become rapists, steal, hate crimes... anything detrimental to a healthy life....But why would your loving "father" allow you to.
Freedom of choice does not prove love. It proves a detached, uncaring, worry free style of "parenting".


__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

115 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:48 am

h3av3n

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i understand. i know now that i can't change some one else's belief because it's different from mine. i'll just believe what i believe and you guys can believe what ever you want.




116 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:14 am

tool

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Coincidences =/= divine intervention.

For one, does God really have nothing better to do than start your dad's car for your soccer practice? Out of hunger, rape, murder, torture, disease, natural disasters, and corruption that drives our lives into the ground, your soccer practice is number 1 on his agenda? Secondly, everything can be explained with a rational thought. Besides, if this life is a test to get to heaven and your dad couldn't figure out how to fix his own car and needed the help of a deity, then that should be considered an F in the "usefulness to humanity" category.

http://www.myspace.com/kaylaandme

117 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:15 am

tool

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And I know this video has been posted a few times around this site, but I will post it again for reiteration to submit a form of logic and understanding.

http://www.myspace.com/kaylaandme

118 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:13 am

nodata

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T@D wrote:"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". So if you are wealthy... you can't go to heaven? Seems a bit unfair.... considering religion is a multi trillion dollar industry who has million dollar leaders.... and members that fight daily for a better home, or car, or a raise at work.

ok, this is my point of interest on your post

it didn't say that a rich man can get into Heaven, it's saying that no matter if you're rich or poor, your chances of getting into heaven are the same, you have to follow the same path, you can't buy your way in

if you read the passage, it doesn't say that a rich man CAN'T get into Heaven, all he's saying is it's pretty damn difficult, but throughout the bible, it says it's really really hard to get into Heaven...PERIOD

it's called the Straight and Narrow for a reason, it's easy to fall off the path

i know that from personal experience....


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My job isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure it's crowded when I get there.
Death is peace.

119 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:14 am

nodata

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rich man can't*


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My job isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure it's crowded when I get there.
Death is peace.

120 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:19 am

nodata

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also, tad, i remember parts of our 4 hour or so conversation we were having on this topic, i remember at one point you were pointing out things that have no proof what-so-ever aside from faith

i get gut feelings all the time when it comes to my rl business, online not so much, but i'm rarely wrong when i get those

faith is the same way, you know you're right, but you can't prove it

so tad, do you get those gut feelings?


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My job isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure it's crowded when I get there.
Death is peace.

121 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:45 pm

T@D

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Intuition or "gut" feelings have noting to do with a god of any type. I have had "gut feelings" on many occasions... and sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. It is more then likely if someone did an equation on the amounts they would end up beings close to equal. But if you are looking at a "gut feeling" as being from some sort of divine power then most likely, you would only notice the times you were right because they would fit the proper agenda.

And as far as that bible verse.... you can't add to it or change it to fit what you believe. It does not say that rich or poor have the same chance. "A camel passing through the eye of a needle". That's basically saying it is impossible. Its a metaphor. Just like "when pigs fly" or "when hell freezes over". People use unrealistic metaphors to show an impossibility.

Now, in all fairness, there is two arguments. One is that the "eye" refers to a door or gate and not actually an eye. Doors were called "eyes" back in biblical times. Assuming that... then it would be easy then right? I mean bringing a camel through a door wouldn't be considered a daunting task. So why say it if that is what he meant? Again though, that is mere speculation on the meaning of the word. If you look at things realistically.....the gospels were written NOT by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.... they were written by other people decades later assumability from passed down information over time.

If you are going to believe the bible as the "word of god"... that man wrote it but god was the true author through man... then why would he speak in a way that is not understandable to us now? Surely a god would be able to foresee the difference in languages and comprehension through out times. Why not create a DVD and a DVD player to record all of these things? He knew they were going to be created.... why wait and slowly give man the knowledge to build these types of things that would give us an indisputable amount of what was said and what happened? Why have a book written by man, sometime hundreds of years after the events, to be his "proof" of what happened?

In the bible, god only showed himself to one man... .Moses. But the accounts of angel sightings and the story of a son of god... how come we do not have these things happen outside of the bible? I mentioned above: The 10 commandments, the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the plagues, the crossing of the red sea, Elijah's decent to heaven on a chariot, Someone being brought back from the dead, turning a wooden staff into a snake, someone living to over 900 years old, turning water into wine, the story of the loaves and fish... all of these amazing miracles... where are they today? Now that we have the ability to properly record events on many media types... why not do one of those things now? Why limit all of these things over a 4000 period of time and to the current generations only get handed a book of these stories. As a video I posted above said.... if jesus/god can raise people from the dead..... then why not heal an amputee. He healed the lepers... why hasn't that happened? How come not one person with a visual disease can show "proof" of god's power?

And this is the one main thing that, to me proves, that even if there was a Jesus... which is possible, that the bible is strictly an embellishment.

God loves us. ALL of us. Every being on the earth he create and loved...... then why only send his only son to a very small part of the world? There is proof that there was people living in almost all corners of the earth. Why send him there? The Myans, American Indians, Monks, Druids, Asian empires.... all date back to before and after the life of Jesus... but yet he only appeared to a relativity small group of people? Not one other culture claims a visit from Jesus besides the roman/jewish area.

Well, actually the do. Krishna visited the people in India, Esus was seen by the Celtic people, Apotakmkin was the god to the American Indians (one of many), Fu Shen in China. The only religion that believes that Jesus, after his resurrection, came elsewhere to preach his message of god was the Mormons. They believe Jesus came to North America to preach to teh Indians the same message he preached in the Jewish/Roman nations. They say that Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 to get assistance in rebuilding his church, here,..... in America. They also believe that go lives on planet Kolob and that wearing secret underwear will protect them "evil". They believe in the same god as christians. They believe in the same jesus as christians..... so they are right I assume?

So Jesus went only 1 place... teh son of god only showed himself to a minuscule location on this vast planet? Wouldn't that be unfair to the rest of the world? Isn't that some sort of favoritism?

People didn't have email back then. They didn't have ways to send messengers to far away locations. That being true... why only limit this "divine visit" to, realistically, a handful of people 2,000 years ago?

Again, there is nothing wrong with believing in the bible or god. I'm all for it. I truly believe that the bible has some great messages on how to live. If the world would live in accordance of the bible teachings than the world would be a better place. But you don't have to believe in a god to believe in the moralistic teaching that are in the bible. You don't have to have faith in jesus to understand teh difference between right and wrong.

Thomas Jefferson... one of the founding fathers of this country wrote a bible called "The Life and Morals of Jesus" He believed, as I do, that the bible is a great moral book that holds a lot of purposeful words on how to live your life. In his bible he removed all of the "jesus is the son of god" and the "miracles" to just leave the teachings. He considered the rest an embellishment of the truth written by 3rd of 4th hand "whitenesses"...... thats exactly what I believe.

The bible is a self-help book. That's it.


__________________________________________________________________________________________




"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.... Faith is the denial of observation so that beliefs can be preserved."


*{CHS}* Putch: im bringing sexxy back
*pWp*T@D*: I brought it back. But you are more then welcomed to fluff it.

<-H$*SoStoned / Pillies -: whos your quake fun person of the year taddie bear?!?!??!
*pWp*T@D*: me... dipshit.
*pWp*T@D*: Im the fun
.
http://www.pwpclan.org

122 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:53 pm

nodata

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i wasn't looking at gut feelings being divine, i was making a comparison at the fact that you have no proof, but a lot of times you're right


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My job isn't to dive feet first into hell, but to make sure it's crowded when I get there.
Death is peace.

123 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:48 pm

rush

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it's called intuition.


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They tried to fight him
Just couldn't beat him
This manic depressive
Who walks in the rain
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124 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:06 pm

nodata

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or gut feeling

this mini-debate is just like the 2 pronunciations of tomato, potato, data, and any other word with multiple pronunciations like that

it differs from person to person sometimes


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125 Re: God or not. on Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:09 am

Haunter

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126 Re: God or not. on Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:06 pm

Pornfish

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I don't like that quote. It's making an argument that because there are many religions, there must be one that is right and the rest must be wrong, so, logically, it's not reasonable to believe in them. It works in that sense, but it fails to disprove the existence of some 'other' intelligent force out there that planned what we see today, what surrounds us; and that is what this debate is about, it's not about religions.

It's a matter of either believing in that some kind of randomness made the particles that created the world as we see it happen by chance, or if some driven force began it all. It's something that science has not been able to prove or disprove; it goes beyond what we as humans have been able to measure and observe, and that's point where faith makes its play. Make no mistake though, it takes the same faith to believe in some other 'force' than to believe there is no 'force' at all. It's the same blind leap we're all making.


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